| Forum Home > Shia vs. Sunni > zaidism: the happy medium? | ||
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Member Posts: 7 |
Salaam everyone. I'm interested in promoting Zaidism as a nice happy medium between sunnism and 12 imamer shi-ite-ism. I think converts especially will find Zaidism a great alternative as it is more progressive than other math-habs. I've started a blog about Zaidism in English, with information about Zaidism and advice on how to become a Zaidi. Debate is welcome there. If anyone disagrees with Zaidi principles, do tell me why. I am a very open minded Muslim. The blog is called zaidism.blogspot.com w/salaam | |
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Member Posts: 48 |
It is a very balanced sect. However, in Islam ever sect has its strengthens and weakeness. I prefer the interepretation of Ibn Hadid when it comes to Najh al Balagah. Ibn Al Hadid Al Mutazilli states:
Know that the origins of fabrications in fada'il traditions were due to the Shi'ite, for they forged in the first instance traditions concerning their leader. Enmity towards their adversaries drove them to this fabrication . When the Bakriyya saw what the Shi'ite had done, they fabricated for their own master traditions to counter the former . When the Shi'ite saw what the Bakriyya had done, they increased their efforts Now the problem with both Mutazillah and Zaydia is reject a mystical branch of Islam ie Sufism. The Fiqh seems to be more accurate then any Sunni school and Imami school.
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Member Posts: 23 |
Let us just be Muslims who see Allah wherever we are and seek to submit to Him. Let us accpet people who wish to have mathahib and those who choose not to have a mathhab (school of thought, a way of living the faith). What matters is how we live our lives to manifest faith and earn His pleasure and Mercy. Perhaps then we will soften the hearts of others to be attracted to belief in Him. Those who join are required only to accept Tauhid of Allah and the finality of His Propphet (PBUH). In accepting the latter he (PBUH) asks only that we love his family. Imam al-Asi has problems with some because he does not accept Shii claims to privilege or Sunni claims to truth. He asks us to accpet personal repsonsibility for our beliefs. Let us retain our traditions (schools, mathahib) but engage that heritage critically.
People who join the faith need not be confused by our sectarian T-shirts. There are enough of us who are confused and mutually hostile.
Let us just be Muslims who wish to live in submission to Him. We have enough problems with those who play god on earth to still care to wash, iron and wear our sectarian uniforms. Being a Muslim is a tough enough task without having to worry whether I should pray with my hands folded or by my sides or whether I should wash or wipe my feet or whther I can wipe my special socks (kuffs).
There are places in the Middle East today where Shafi'is, Malikis, Hanbalis and Hanafis do not follow Imams from mathahibs other than their own. In Pakistan Barelwis and Deobandis do not follow one another. In Pakistan and India Sunnis and Shias die at the hands of one another. That is where out sectarian commitments have led us. | |
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Member Posts: 7 |
Salaams. Nice comments, maa sha Allah, this is a great website. When I tried to mention Zaidism on my local muslim website (aussiemuslims.com) they deleted me immediately! Regarding the issue of Sufism, I’ve posted the question “Does Zaidism reject Sufism?” in the “Ask a Zaidi” section of the zaidism blog. So far, there are three Zaidi responses, one of them by a scholar. Regarding the issue of sectarianism, this same issue is being discussed under the post “Is Zaidism a sect?” and the sentiments being expressed so far by Zaidis are the same as those of brother Miqdad, i.e. sectarianism is counter-productive. The trouble is, how do we present an alternative to salafism (which is spreading in my area like weeds do in the garden), without giving the alternative world view(s) an identifiable name? w/salaam | |
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Member Posts: 23 |
My dearest Sister Zaida,
There are some who from an ideological point of view belong to the Islamic Flat Earth Society. Those who delete your posts on Zaidism are likely life members of the said society.
The things to do is to engage the real issues of those who are Muslims and those who have yet to hear of let alone accept the faith. In this regard, one needs to invite by one's conduct before one's words. One should be a mercy like he (PBUH) was a mercy to those around him. That alone raises interest. However, this is not trying to live the faith in a vacuum. Prophets were sent by Allah so that people can live in a state of justice. For salafis this is often trying to impose an Islamic Khilafat without due process. They have nothing to say about poverty, homelessness, unemployment, domestic violence, quality of social welfare services, the quality of health services, the increases in taxation and increasing social isolation of poor, marginalised, old and mentally challenged people. By organising in thse areas one lives the mercy and operationalises the faith. Faith then comes alive and challenges the status quo.
One has an impact on activists and those who are affected by these issues. By discussing these matters from one's Islamic or Zaidi viewpoint (if still needed) one Islamically influences the discourse. That causes people who already have a social consciousness to ask questions about one's ideological framework and conduct. Then one has space for personal and social growth. The salafis and other sectarians become irrelevant.
The future of Islam in Australia and elsewhere will unlikely be determined by salafis. On the contrary they have no social programme. By just being a caring and careful Muslim or Muslimah (who does not wave a flag and sectarian T-shirt) one overtakes those who sometimes fervently believe but have no programme,
Do not worry about a weedfilled garden. Look and work beyond the walls of the garden. There is abundant scope for growth. The weeds in the garden will likely commit herbicide. You are closest to the biggest Muslim presence in the world and one of the most ancient Muslim presnces (China). Between where you are and these geographical realities are millions of people who need activist Muslims who will take their deen of mercy and love into the real world where real people suffer daily indignities. Muslims who extend a caring hand to these peopel will have opened hearts. However, it also requires caring and loving Muslims to deal with (and oppose) the realities of power whicg place obstacles in the way of people realising their full potential as servants of Allah.
Therefore our sectarian brothers and sisters are important as people. As a social force they are irrelevant because they only generate heat in the established Muslim communities. If, as you say you are a revert, then where you come from there are hardly any salafis. These are the people who require your love and care. The salafis will catch up with the world perhaps later. When the bus is gone. | |
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Member Posts: 7 |
Salaams! I think it’s a bit of a cop-out to say we don’t need to identify with any sect or school of thought, especially when others are busy promoting their ill conceived ideas using every means possible. When elections are held in a democracy, we face the choice of either voting or not voting. Sometimes we vote for a party even though we don’t agree with all of their policies, simply to prevent an even worse party from becoming elected. If moderate Muslims do not actively promote their moderate schools of thought within Islam, and do not identify with them even loosely, the extremists will get the votes of the weak minded people who don’t have the time or the inclination to search out the moderate views.Regarding devoting our time to social services, I find that the extremists in my country have given Muslims such a bad reputation that a Muslim needs to conceal their Islamic identity if they want to take part in community projects like the ones you are recommending. It is difficult to show a positive Muslim example when you are posing as a non Muslim in order to be accepted into the broader community. In other words, the extremists have even made the “show by example” option difficult in today’s world. | |
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Member Posts: 7 |
assalaamu alaikum, if anyone is interested in reading English translations of early Zaidi books on theology and fiqh, these are now available online at www.zaydiyyah.wordpress.com The translations have just been done by the Imam Rassi Society, and more are on the way... w/salaam | |
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Member Posts: 23 |
My dearest Sister,
I am not engaging in a cop-out. Look at the war being waged in Yemen. Saudi jet-fighters are bombing Muslims who just happened to be Zaidis. The same salafi and Wahabi mentality that wipes out any trace of you on a website in Australia wages war against other Muslims, Zaydis, who are of the poorest people in Yemen and Yemen is of the poorest Muslims in the world.
Out problems as Muslims is to be united as the Prophet had ordered us to be. Once someone says the Kalima shahada that person is a Muslim and his/her life, honour and property are sacred to every other Muslim. Being Sunni or Shia, Hanafi or Shafii, Maliki or Hambali, Barelwi or Deobandi or Zaydi does not even enter the debate for considiration of priveleged violation of the duty to protect life, honour and property. Every Muslim also has a duty to be a mercy as he (PBUH) was a mercy to all mankind. Our mercy extends even to enemies who when we see something that is wrong we change it by our hands (we do our utmost individually and collectively, if that is not possible we speak out or lastly pray. As a Muslim we are committed to truth, justice and fairness. We are not indifferent.
Now where is there room for waving sectarian banners and advancing mutually hostile agendas. You are contacting a site where people have been on the pavement, expelled from the mosque for more than 25 years. On the pavement you have people who see beyong sectarianism. Inside the mosque many have taken out membership of various sectarian structures. To fight sectarianism one does not advance further division. One transcends differences and join Muhajirun and Ansar in their manifestations today. In the United States people come from all over the world with all sorts of baggage. Just being a Muslim who is accepted and loved by other Muslims transcends barriers between Sunnis and Shias, Latinos and Arabs, African Americans and South East Asians. Like Ibrahim (PBHUH) being a Muslim is and should be enough.
I accept people who self-identify themselves as any combination of labels. I will however remain simply a Muslim. I have fewer hats to wear and that makes life much simpler. Then I can deal with real issues in the Muslim community i.e. housing, education, social-welfare etc.
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Member Posts: 7 |
Salaam. If I was in Washington I would be with you on the pavement! It is easy enough for people born and raised as Muslims to simply identify as ‘Muslims’ and perform their rituals as their parents did, and to have a view about Imamate and theology as their parents did. But for new Muslims, a choice must be made regarding which math-hab or “sect” they are going to follow, and which viewpoint they are going to adopt regarding Imamate and Theology. I am not the first Muslim convert who has decided to shop around, rather than adopting the practices and views of the first Muslim I happened to come across. While researching Zaidism on the net, I often come across converts entering various Islamic websites in order to ask for information about Zaidism in English, and being told that there is nothing available in English, and that Zaidism is almost defunct anyway. I think these converts should have the choice available to them alongside other choices. You claim to be non sectarian… What would you say, then, to a new convert who asks you to recommend a math-hab? And how would you answer a new convert asking your opinion about the Imamate issue? | |
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Member Posts: 23 |
My dear Sister Zaida,
May I suggest that when it comes to Mathabs (schools of practice). There are basically four Sunni Mathahib. Imam Abu Hanifa (in Kufa, Iraq) and Imam Malik (Madina, currently Saudi) founded their schools in the first century of Islam. Imam Malik preferred the practice of companions and their followers of the practice of the prophet.
Imam Jafar lived in Medina at about the same time Imam Abu Hanifa (tail end of the first century to midlle of the second century). Imam Abu Hanifa studied for two years under Imam Jafar. However, the spread of the Hanifi Mathhab is due to the closeness of Imam Abu Hanifa's student Imam Yusuf who was a close confidant of the Abbasid Khalif Harun al-Rashis. Imam Yusuf was opposed to Imam Jafar's popularity because for a long time the Shias wwere haraased by Umayyad and Abbasid Khalifs. Imam Jafar was able to speak more easily to thousands of students because of the political weaknesses of the Unmayyad and Abbasis regimes. Imam Maik was born a decade later and lived for about two decades longer than Imam Jafar. He too was a student of Imam Jafar. By the time Imam Jafar had reached the end of his life the Khalif Mansur asked Imam Malik to prepare al-Muwattta, as a point of reference. So we have the role of political office and priveliged access to power that played a role in the spread of the Hanafi and Maliki Mathahib. Imam Shafii was born after the death of Imam Jafar and lived beyond the time of Imam Malik. In Egypt many, if not most, were followers of Ahl-Al Bayt (Fatimid dynasty). Salahuddin the liberator of Al-Qods, fought a war against the Fatimids. In its place came the Shafii schoool. Again politics , power and the spread of a mathhab. The Hanbali mathhab again was a local phenomenon. It spread due to the influence of ibn Taymiyyah almost four hundred years later. Imam Zayd was the uncle of Imam Jafar. Imam Zayd felt that Imam Jafar's father, Muhammad Baqir (5th Imam) was wrong not to actively oppose the Ummayads.
My question, is of what benefit is all of this to a new convert or even a Muslim born in a Mulsim home. Many do not know these facts. Yet, many who are ignorant are champions of mathahib and defend some people who opposed the prophet.
There was a time when there no no schools of . There were only Muslims. Different schools emerged after jurists used different approaches to and different bases (usool) for their jurisprudential reasoning. That requires a certain level of competence in being able to independently reason as to the law and its application. The basis issue is that no one has priveliged access to the core text i.e. the Quran. Hence we can only say that jurists have tried their utmost and Allah knows best. What is needed is the preparedness to accept that one does not have the final answer. On the other hand we should not ignore the role that political power and access to power played in the spread of mathahib. Jurists were used to legitimise power. In may cases it was not the power of the jurisprudential argument that won the day but the access to politicians. In fact politicians then were no different from those in office today. Human nature seems a constant current from time immemorial and all of us have our weak points.
However, it is a fact that the Prophet (PBUH) had said that he (PBUH) is the city of knowledge and Ali is its gate. What one finds strange is that some schools ignore this unchallenged statement in their jurisprudential understanding and practice. That however is history. It is clear that Ali had specal knowledge.
However, when people ask about Imamat it is not only to settle historical debates but to undeerstand leadership in their own lifetimes. That is a question I will adrees once we have digested the above. I am not suggesting that it is new to you but many who wear sectarian T-shirts struggle with what I had said above. | |
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Member Posts: 48 |
It is only fair to admit that'our' muhaddiseen did not report much from the Imams of ahl al-bayt especiallyfrom the second imam onwards, and if there is a report then generally itis to support the authors point of view about certain matters of disagreement.Imam Nasai in sunan has riwayaat but others from sihah almost ignored the'golden chain' for some reason. You will find reports from Marwan and others but not from imam Zain al-abideen(A), forinstance, hadith saqalayn does not find its way into sahih bukhari although ithas many different sahih chains! Perhaps, political pressure has something todo with it. In fiqhwe see that all four imams directly or indirectly have benefitted from thewisdom of the imams of Ahl al-bayt, so much so that Imam Abu hanifa not onlywas martyred for his support for the Imams of ahl al-bayt but was also given ijazat/permissionby Imam Jafar al-sadiq to issue fatwa. TheSufis have been the one to embrace wholeheartedly the teachings and knowledgeof the Imams; it demonstrates from their silsila tariqat that every single oneof the silsilaz has Imams of ahl al-bayt. Shaykh akbar muhyodeen arabiin the heart of introduction to his tafseer says: qala imam jafaras-sadiq 'innallAllaha tabarak wa ta'ala tajalla li ebadihi fil quran' Afterhis sanction from imam jafar sadiq's interpretive framework, he starts histafseer, subhan Allah! Asfor other mufassireen, they have made mention of imams' opinionsbut that too is infrequent. Soit is a sad reality that our sources of hadith, tafseer, fiqh etc havelittle particular mention of the Imams. However,the alternative which claims to rely upon the Imams only, have got so muchnon-sense attributed to the imams that at least I cannot follow 'shaykhs'in the name of ahl al-bayt. It is not to say that everything they have is notfrom imams and is only fabrications. I think, if something does not contradictand go against the Sufi tradition of sunni Islam then there is no harm inaccepting that as wisdom from the imams. Afterall, Rasul Allah (s) has saidthat wisdom is something misplaced by a momin and where ever he/she finds itbenefits from it. Imam ghazali's ihya al-uloom is an example where you findsame hadith as shias' books but with different chains particularly withreference to general wisdom.
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Member Posts: 48 |
As for the Madhab of Ahlul Bayt (as). The nowadays offspring of Ahlul Bayt belong to either Ahlus Sunnah, or one of the Shia groups. While Ahlul Bayt in the early days had their own Math'hab, and it was not entirely documented due to the consistent persecution and murder they were subjigated to, but many of them specifically after the 5th century of Hijra went to follow either one of the Sunni Math'habs or one of the Shi'i Math'hab, depending on their circumstances and the area they lived in.
Furthermore, most if not almost all (not all, but almost) the Ulema from Ahlul Bayt in nowdays world are not really on the footsteps of their ancestors, due to the obvious disconnection in knowledge, but instead they learned from the other schools of Fiqh/Aqidah, and adopted them. Therefore, in reality, they represent Ahlul Bayt in their genetics only, not in their ways and methods, and knowledge. Because most have learned their knowledge from outsiders of Ahlul Bayt, and rarely, will you a continued line of knowledge (not geneology) through Ahlul Bayt all the way among Ahlul Bayt scholars nowadays.
That applies to both camps. The 12'er Shia camp has its math'hab entirely founded, written, and documented by non-ahlul bayt, despite their wide claims of being the "math'hab of Ahlul Bayt". That is just words, and their scholars know the reality. The founders of their Math'hab were those who were lovers and at times extremely narrowminded to the people among Ahlul Bayt they knew. Ignorant of the rest, etc.. Hence, in that respect, schools such as Imam Abu Hanifah and Imam Shaf'i specifically, are much closer to Ahlul bayt than the 12'ers. I mean the Imams themselves and their opinions, not necessarily a recent Shafi' scholar or a recent Hanafi' Scholar.
Therefore, do not be amazed if you see among "Ahlul Bayt" scholars nowadays who is a Nasibi. Because his knowledge was never recieved from Ahlul Bayt in an unbroken chain to the teaching of Imams like Ja'far, Musa, Al-Husayn, Zayd, Al-Hasan, etc.. Most of their teachings ( even if has a little long chain) but it stops somewhere, and says he follows such and such. With -of course- all due respect, but you have to remember that during the first 3-4th century of Hijra you could never find anyone from Ahlul Bayt who followed any Math'hab other than the Math'hab of the leaders of Ahlul Bayt at his time. ( Of course with all due respect to other Math'habs), but Imam Abu Hanifah came to learn from Imam Sadiq, and the children of Imam Sadiq learned from their father, they didn't need to go to anybody else. That knowledge stayed in them, until most were killed, jailed, etc..and people went to the honorable students of Ahlul Bayt, such as Imam Abu Hanifah and Imam Shafi'i. Yet, a minority of them kept lots of what it could hold from the teachings of their ancestors, and a few remained.
Hence, Shi'a in the sence of 12'ers is a new Math'hab, and Sunnism is also a Math'hab. All claim to have taken from Ahlul Bayt. Unlike what the 12'ers claim, there is no exclusivity for them. Except we- Ahlus Sunnah- are closer than the 12'ers to the teachings of Ahlul Bayt. The reason we did not get the name for that, is the presence of the Nasibi's amongst us under the name of Ahlus Sunnah. But, if one examines the situation carefully, you would see that Nasibi's (despite their claims to be hanafi's, shafi'is, Ash'ari's, Maturidi's) are not truely Sunni's, because they lack the most important pillar of sunnism after tawheed, which is the stand from Ahlul Bayt.
Those are some facts that most people do not know, or don't see. Hence the massive confusion.
Finally, while Nasibi's means the enemies of Ahlul Bayt. Remember it is never apparent nor obvious, as becoming an obvious enemy to Ahlul Bayt automatically means Nifaaq, etc. Hence, Nasibi's have always claimed since their Master Yazid bin Muawiyah and on his tongue that they are lovers of Ahlul Bayt. Of course, they did everything to stop them and stab them in the back. Today, the spiritual offspring of Yazid bin Muawiyah continues in the very same hidden ways, but you can easily identify them through two tools:( 1- Supression of the events, Seerah, struggle, martyrdom, objectives of Ahlul Bayt. ( Most don't even know it to start with). 2- Glorification of the enemies of Ahlul Bayt, i.e. those who fought them, killed them, hurt them, gave them hardships, etc..and finding excuses for those tyrannts.
Finally, going back to the other big problem which is those who claim to be from Ahlul Bayt, but are Nasibi's. That goes back to them learning on the hands of Yazidi's, and the biggest sign is that they are completely ignorant in the Seerah and struggle of Ahlul Bayt. Furthermore, Ahlul Bayt are rarely mentioned on their tongues. While we love them and respect them naturally, but they surely dont represent the ways of Ahlul Bayt.
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Member Posts: 2 |
Assalaamualykum wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakaatuh
I would advise that should a new Muslim be looking to get started, then in that case a common sense approach along with an inquisitive mind be adopted in so far as practices relating to rituals and cleanliness are concerned. But we cannot remain stuck in this activity of personal duties forever to the neglect of our social responsibilities.
There are enough ayaat in the Qur'an and ahadith from the Prophet (s) to have us do something useful to uplift the course of society. I would advise any new Muslim to stay away from "Ulema'" who are in-active. These types are predominantly responsible for substituting the thrust of the message of the Qur'an and the struggle of the Prophet (s) i.e. these types of "Ulema'" relegate the quest to institute a just social order with sectarian baggage and other hair-splitting issues.
The entire approach has to be over-hauled. We cannot have Muslims buried beneath or obsessed with issues that are secondary. Almost all the issues pertaining to differences between the madh'ahib are secondary and we do not live in an atmosphere that allows us to finesse our Islam. More importantly, you will find that all the Imams/Fuqaha' were involved in a struggle with those who usurped power because that is where Allah and His Prophet (s) were and that is where all of our engies should be concentrated.
A very great Imam once said "The reason many Muslims feel they are divided is because they are not action oriented. If some of these divisive Muslims went to the war front - there is many war fronts around Muslim countries - they can take their pick, let them go to one of these war fronts, scare them for a couple of weeks over there and then have them come back. Their tendencies for division will decrease I assure you that... What I'm trying to say is that the more action oriented we are then the less these issues of division are going to come about. But the more we are withdrawn from action, then the more trivial issues become so divisive... ".
Wa Salaamualaykum | |
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Member Posts: 7 |
Assalaamu alaikum, thanks for comments, I've responded to these comments on my blog, (zaidism.blogspot), see "A Zaidi Reply to Ahlus Sunnah". Other Zaidis have added some interesting comments to mine. Hope we can keep this friendly dialogue going! Ramadan Kareem! w/salaam | |
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Member Posts: 7 |
Salaam everyone, my new improved zaidi blog is at www.zaidiblog.com Check it out for the latest translations of books by early Zaidi scholars into English w/salaam Zaida | |
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Member Posts: 3 |
Salaam Sectarianism in Islam is a myth.There is no such thing in Islam.Sectarianism only exists in the imaginations of Muslims.If something is true you must accept it and not associate it with a group.
The second strategy shaytan used against man was divide and conquer (Able and Kane) so this is literally the second oldest trick in the book. We must not divide and conquer ourselves because Islam has enough enemies. I know most Muslims are incapable of defining themselves as just being a Muslim but it is possible. The Prophet showed us how to be Muslim and not Muslim,256-1 or Muslim,256-2. One of the reasons why the Able and Kane historical facts is mentioned to us is so that we don’t fall into the same trap. This history lesson applies to different races, genders, nations, tribes etc. Shaytan used jealousy as the mechanism to start the division but the mechanism can be a range of other things. Sectarianism is illogical because it is the opposite of unity and causes Muslims to hate and kill each other. Different sects will maybe have different small parts of the truth and the rest is filled up with different handshakes. A person that belongs to one sect is sometimes blind to see the truths in other sects. As Muslims we should not confine ourselves to only a few truths and specific parts of history, we should seek all truth and knowledge from the cradle to the grave. All Muslims should love and respect one another. | |
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